Curse

Maddie · Jan 22, 2006, 07:06 PM // 19:06

/ Not\signed\at\all

Karmakin · Jan 22, 2006, 07:35 PM // 19:35

Boy..all the flaming. Wow.

But as someone who hates playing IWAY and is having a hard time building up the fame (I'm at 140 now after a good run with my new guild..my old guild never played HoH..not once), this isn't a bad idea. I wouldn't give fame rewards for it...keep it seperate.

But I think that a different rating system for this would be good. Base it on the ELO system of sorts. People drop? Doesn't matter. They still lose points. You'd gain/lose points depending on the combined rating of your team vs the rating of the other team. Only have one monk? Adapt. You should be focusing fire fast enough to take the other team down fairly fast.

And about builds in modern HoH, once you get above the IWAY level, things get more interesting Rainbow Spike, Wa/R's are replaced by Gale Warriors, and something that hit for the first time (and prevented us from winning HoH with a timely Blackout), Blackout warriors.

I believe that there ARE problems with the GW community right now. However, from what I see Factions should take care of quite a bit of it. Forming Alliances of guilds to get enough people together to form groups, at any time will help a big deal. It'll be hard to FIND a PUG eventually. As well, the second type of competition that'll be launched, the Alliance based Faction Wars, probably with it's own rating and how it will meld PvP and PvE will help a lot.

Don Vito Corleone · Jan 22, 2006, 08:18 PM // 20:18

Quote:

Just one look at this thread.. I think it speaks for itself.

Getting rid of the Hall of Heroes and replacing it with Random Tournament is a bad idea...

pls..read the topic carefully

its about another tomb arena separated of the essential one...in other words its about another random arena for 8vs8 not to be replaced by the 1st tomb arena

Sagius Truthbarron · Jan 22, 2006, 09:18 PM // 21:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkyX

It's kind of strange that people who want random arenas (at least a seperate one [This 'atleast' mentioned is an indication that he was, at first, refering to the want of HoH to become Random, he did not deny this in his reply, either]) tournaments are usually casual gamers or people who just want to play. The ones that refuse the idea are arrogant people who are saying I should conform and nothing more.

I used to be in a guild that only played 3 nights a week for 2 hours each play seasion (times layed out to meet work scheduels). They were a rank 208 guild last I checked. You don't have to get into random groups to get ranked. You just need to find a guild who have expirienced members, or, atleast, intelligent ones.

Also, being meek is a key factor to Guild Wars. I know alot of people have these strange, nearly religous ideals that they were born or are now in a mentally perfect state: But, please, swollow the pride and accept counsul.

I can see a random tombs, but make tombs totally random just to 'nerf' IWAY and other FoTMs?Sure, its a pain that all those people are playing as them and that's all thy want to do.
Look at it this way, though: if they weren't IWAY, they would be W/mos with Mending.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Vito Corleone

pls..read the topic carefully

its about another tomb arena separated of the essential one...in other words its about another random arena for 8vs8 not to be replaced by the 1st tomb arena

I think you got this a bit backwords. I'm sure the thread went off topic at some point, but if you didn't notice, the thread's title is:

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkyX

Heroes' Ascent - Make it random

The OP also said:

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkyX

So I'm making a suggestion that will probably not be very popular: Make heroes' ascent into a huge random 8 team fighting tournament, much like random arenas.

This is obviously a suggestion to convert the only HoH areana (Tombs is now a PvE area) into a random areana. The OP even admitted that in the reply to me.

awesome sauce · Jan 22, 2006, 09:30 PM // 21:30

You guys seem to think that he wants to keep tombs random. That's not what hes saying at all. He just wants an 8v8 random tournament in addition to tombs where you can fight other random 8v8 teams. Some people don't like waiting an hour to join a group and then losing in the first round. Some people don't like not being able to find a group other than iway because they are not r6+. It would just offer another arena where casual players can go and find an alternative to the usual lame random 4v4 arenas where you get minimal rewards

Sagius Truthbarron · Jan 22, 2006, 09:46 PM // 21:46

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to look at this thread and tell what he is talking about.

Heroe's Ascent is the only HoH Tournament in the game (No more Tombs. Its not comming back.) Making Heroe's Ascent random would make HoH random.

Look at the thread's name. "Heroes' Ascent - Make it random"

I'm just saying, this was the OP's original intent. Its plastered all over the place.

I think a random, seperate gateway might be fun(ny). Something you also have to take into account, though: there is only one Hall of Heroes. Random players would have to fight guild groups. Essentially 'Invite The Whole District' builds vs [pRp] or [MATH]. Whose going to win?

I think the solution to all of our problems is to 'nerf' the IWAY build, disheartening them and making them disband. Exactly like putting down a rebellion lead by peasents with angry dogs.

Hopefully, the Samurai warlords will be here after this GWWC thingy is over.

yangster · Jan 22, 2006, 10:09 PM // 22:09

Not signed.

Make your own build, get friends, and there you go. OR, you can make a guild, get good players, and then GvG. We don't need a random Tombs/8v8.

Thom · Jan 22, 2006, 10:42 PM // 22:42

Random arena/Team arena works well for what it is. I don't see why the same combination can't with teams of 8. Perhaps they can have a random 4 level "pre-tombs" where rank is harder to come by. This would require a better system for random matching, but would be better introduction for new players or slow guild nights. Nothing wrong with adding more options for PvP.

I really think there should be fame in GvG. There are plenty of players and guilds that play high level GvG, but are rank 2 or 3. Give players 1 fame for gvg wins, 2 for top 200 wins, 3 for top 100 wins, 4 for top 50, 5 for top 25 and 10 for top 10 wins (you get the idea). In the end, rank means nothing since a guy who got rank 6 playing an IWAY warrior could be worthless as a monk or mez.

My biggest laugh--ranked IWAY... please, what about IWAY requires me to be rank 6? I could run any of the IWAY builds while watching TV and talking on the phone (note sarcasm). Yeah, IWAY is the easiest quickest random build... there is no reason to nerf it since it has little use in high level GvG.

awesome sauce · Jan 22, 2006, 10:59 PM // 22:59

Yes, but IWAY has been clogging up tombs for six months now... we want something different. Being only rank 3, it takes me about half an hour just to find a non-iway build, and then another hour just to get that group going. Then when we finally get in, we face iway after iway after iway. They are even the majority in ID1 now...

MaaKotka · Jan 23, 2006, 12:08 AM // 00:08

Replacing Tombs/HoH/Heroes Ascent with random 8vs8 HoH is bad idea. Making separate 8vs8 arena could be a good idea. Except I can't figure out a single reason why I would want it.

I got my rank 3 just a couple days ago and I haven't had too hard time finding a group never. Finding a good group is a different story. If you want to experiment some new builds I suggest you to make team by yourself instead of trying to find a team who would accept your build without any changes in it. I see lots of people to "LFG, can be anything". Just ask them to join your team and tell them what you want them to be.

If you want to find a nice group of people to play with and can't find any guild which is exactly you want a guild to be, why you simply don't make a new guild? I tried to find guild and couldn't find a guild i wanted so i made a new one with my friend. Finding new people to new guild isn't too hard and when you have a guild you like, you don't even have to find people to test your builds. You have them in your guild.

I also love to figure out builds of my own and I have found random arenas to be excellent place to test new builds because of very low skill level. A few tries in random arena tell if my build can work or if it can't. If I can't get 5 consecutive wins there with my build it is very bad one. If it can't help random team to get those wins it won't help your team almost at all. It wont tell if it will have any success in 8vs8 but it tells it might be worth of to try it in tombs.

I kind of find iway teams to be a good thing. They absolutely owns bad builds/teams in tombs. If your team can't win iway it probably can't win any decent team. And when you make a team/build that wins iway you will most likely win your first 3-4 matches in tombs and get that 6-10 fames. And then you can play against different and better teams in tombs. Besides I find it relaxing to play iway sometimes by myself too.

To those who still think 8vs8 random arena is a good idea, think why you want it, then read my post again and if you still think you can't do things you would want to do in random 8vs8 in any existing pvp arena (including HoH and GvsG) then mayby it would actually be a good idea.

Sorry for my awful english.

carnivore · Jan 23, 2006, 12:18 AM // 00:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom

Random arena/Team arena works well for what it is. I don't see why the same combination can't with teams of 8. Perhaps they can have a random 4 level "pre-tombs" where rank is harder to come by. This would require a better system for random matching, but would be better introduction for new players or slow guild nights. Nothing wrong with adding more options for PvP.

I really think there should be fame in GvG. There are plenty of players and guilds that play high level GvG, but are rank 2 or 3. Give players 1 fame for gvg wins, 2 for top 200 wins, 3 for top 100 wins, 4 for top 50, 5 for top 25 and 10 for top 10 wins (you get the idea). In the end, rank means nothing since a guy who got rank 6 playing an IWAY warrior could be worthless as a monk or mez.

My biggest laugh--ranked IWAY... please, what about IWAY requires me to be rank 6? I could run any of the IWAY builds while watching TV and talking on the phone (note sarcasm). Yeah, IWAY is the easiest quickest random build... there is no reason to nerf it since it has little use in high level GvG.

giving fame for GvG's is dumb.

Fame and rank shows your experience and successfulness in HoH. so what if your good at GvGs, doesnt mean a thing if you have no idea how the HoH metagame works.

Manic Smile · Jan 23, 2006, 12:20 AM // 00:20

*evil grin*

reset rank...fame farmers will bitch...those playing for HoH won't really care and then make it so only winning HoH gives fame...as many have said before

Tombs is about wanting to get to HoH not get some silly number as high as possible to impress other players.

IWAY = over without having to change anything

Trapper groups(unless very skilled) = over

simple *hides in anti flame bunker*

Quote:

Originally Posted by carnivore

Fame and rank shows your experience and successfulness in HoH.

meh...50/50...running IWAY into the first 2-3 maps over and over hardly means you're good at 8man afterall HoH is the point

GvG has guild ranking they don't need fame from tombs.

CyberNigma · Jan 23, 2006, 12:33 AM // 00:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kakumei

Kindly learn how to debate. I'm not the one making claims with zero evidence to back me up--I'm not the one who needs to find some kind of 'proof'.

Sorry, I guess I've been out of school longer than you and must have forgotten what a real debate is (of course, I can't really prove that):-)

I don't recall pausing a debate to write up a proof, but again, I'm no expert debater either. It always seemed to me like it was just a bunch of people arguing their opinions before an audience with judges/moderators calling bullshit on things that may have gotten out of hand (especially informal forums). Remember, presidential debates have been won without having to show proof during that debate. Its a matter of logical persuasion. You may be thinking of a lawyer in a courtroom (though I have no proof that may be the case :-).

Of course in a good debate, all parties are supposed to be non-deceptive, which is where the moderators come in. After all, they've nixed many of those threads concerning the supposed underworld shield because they thought it may be fake. In that case, they said they would re-open the thread if there was proof. Again, they are the moderators/judges (people who do call bullshit on really outlandish claims/flamebait). If you think the OP is wrong/dead wrong, offer the reason why you believe he is wrong. You offered nothing to the conversation for either side really.

I believe that he may be exaggerating a bit. I think I made my opinion clear in a prior post concerning this (concerning both sides actually). After reading the forum, I believe that enough people have posted opposing opinions to effectively reign in his extreme view of the tournament system, all without requiring an html link to proof. You, my fellow debater, have wasted the readers time with two non-conductive (to the subject at hand) messages, and because I couldn't resist, have wasted about half a message just talking about our debate.

If you feel that his claims require some kind of proof (and don't want to offer a counter-opinion), well then just leave it alone unless you think the rest of the forum readers are too dumb to arrive at that conclusion as well. Otherwise, let the moderator tag him as flamebait/bullshitter as they have in other forums I've seen closed (no proof, but I promise I've seen them).

Thank you :-)

p.s., have I said I really like the new changes lately :-)

EDIT: You should learn from Manic Smile. He appears to be same (level? whatever its called) as you and always offers a countering opinon. We've gone at it in a forum or two I believe and minus the aggressive posts sometimes, I don't think I've ever seen him sit there in a message and post 'Proof Plz, Proof Plz' lol. I'm not saying I agree with you Manic...at all...on anything lol. You do have your technique down though :-)

Kakumei · Jan 23, 2006, 03:04 AM // 03:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by CyberNigma

words words words words lah dee dah look at me words words words

For someone INITIATING a debate (because that's what this is) he can't just come out here and say "this is a fact and this is a fact and this is a fact because i say so".

He stated what he thought was the truth, and I kindly asked for some evidence to back up those claims. This is how things go.

CyberNigma · Jan 23, 2006, 05:07 AM // 05:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kakumei

For someone INITIATING a debate (because that's what this is) he can't just come out here and say "this is a fact and this is a fact and this is a fact because i say so".

He stated what he thought was the truth, and I kindly asked for some evidence to back up those claims. This is how things go.

lol, I like the way you quoted me :-)

Yeah, I think he had some valid points, but blew some things out of proportion. After looking through the forums, I'm surprised the mods didn't merge this into another thread. There have been a few others along the same lines as this I think. Of course they are probably playing the new content right now instead.

I don't mean to come across as a hard ass if I did. I just get out of control sometimes with certain things (kinda like when I read technical forums and see RTFM all over the place, that really drives me up a wall lol).

Thom · Jan 23, 2006, 05:56 AM // 05:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by carnivore

giving fame for GvG's is dumb.

Fame and rank shows your experience and successfulness in HoH. so what if your good at GvGs, doesnt mean a thing if you have no idea how the HoH metagame works.

Fame and rank currently show your experience and success in only in HoH. I feel this is a failing since GvG is the primary form of PvP for many players. While the metagame's are slightly different, there isn't this huge gulf you would imply in your statement. Ranger spike very similar, the warrior/orders combo exists in both, degen is the same, smite is the same. If anything GvG is more complicated since you have more area to cover, NPCs and split options. Unless you split constantly, straight up fighting is basically the same as most tombs battes. Relic running is similar to flag runs and altar holding and seiging is like holding at the guild lord. Obviously individual maps are different, but ignoring a players entire GvG experience is "stupid". 90 GvG wins is at least equivalent to Rank 3.

Many GvGers have given up on tombs, which is sad. The "rank rift" in the community is not productive. Calling me stupid for wanting to change this, is less productive. GvG already has guild rank, but when was the last time someone used their guild name to get into a random group. An iq new player may be horrible, but be a friend of someone founding the guild (for example).

CyberNigma · Jan 23, 2006, 06:04 AM // 06:04

I thought I'd post this since it relates to both sides of this topic. If you have no rank, or if you have a ton of rank, consider doing a few runs in the tombs with n00bs just so that they get a chance to look at it. I know its kinda late for the event this weekend, but it's an idea for regular players as well as future events.

I went to team arenas to help new players get some wins so they can open the heroes' ascent. I also went to heroes ascent (again, I'm only rank 2 so this is no big burden) and announce4d that anyone that wants a taste of 8v8 play can invite themselves to my party and I'll take them on an intro run. This wouldn't be a bad idea for people even with high rank/fame to do every now and then (and those without any - don't be picky because you're going to have a hard time yourselves getting into a group).

They never made it past the Underworld (usually killed the AI test), but at least they got the 'shock and awe' of a big battle :-) I think that goes a long way. Plus, who knows... maybe there's such a thing as karma lol..

Deathqueen · Jan 23, 2006, 01:29 PM // 13:29

/signed I've always agreed with this, but, take it one step futher and have two HOH type arenas for 8x8. One for the organized teams and one for random teams.

I too believe the FUN factor would be greater and more and more people would play PVP if they could get into something more exciting than 4x4's (i'm bored silly with 4x4's). I wish there were 16x16's and 32x32's myself. A real war a real random war of fun and laughter and even something like BF1942 where you respawn when you die and jump right back into it again. BF1942 had the best MP pvp feature of any game I've played and I always used to hate pvp.

THEN if one 8x8 team were to win 10 in a row they get to goto organized HOH battlefield (not specifically HOH, but, in the tournament ladder), like they do random 4x4 to team arenas when they win 10 in a row.

Cirian · Jan 23, 2006, 01:40 PM // 13:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkyX

Yep, you read the topic right.

I'm sick of entering into this 'new' area and see the same builds used over and over. You bring an assassin or ritualist? They won't need you. Got a warrior using shouts? Won't take you because you *need* tiger's fury. And you must bring a pet, otherwise you lose.

So I'm making a suggestion that will probably not be very popular: Make heroes' ascent into a huge random 8 team fighting tournament, much like random arenas.

Why is this a good thing?

No more FOTM - How can you have builds like IWAY or ranger spikes or trapper spikes when you cannot organize everyone to perfection? It gets rid of the screwed up overpowered builds that *everyone* demands for. There is no diversity in heroes' ascent, only conformity.

Allows players to use their own builds - Want to be a shouting warrior? A ranger with a pet? Hell, my latest creation, the sword assassin? No one will stop you at all.

Gets rid of rank barrier - Newbs can join in with veterans, and vice versa. No more 'rank' checking. Ranking serves no other purpose but as a badge of time and creates a barrier among the community. Now new players can join the ranks of old.

Random gameplay - The problem with Heroes' ascent is everyone uses the same type of character template. That axe warrior will be the same as the last one, using tiger's fury and the deadly combo. With people able to create their own builds without some sort of mythical force to stop them (aka other players), people should expect all sorts of freaky builds to be used against them. Your team will change. You might have a lot of monks, or you might have very few, you might get that guy who specializes in interrupts, while the others specalize in enchantment stripping. There is nothing to stop you to become 'really bad' or 'really good'. A W/Mo not actually be a bad thing here.

It's quick - No more spamming "R200 mes/necro/jesus LFG". No more spending half an hour after half an hour of looking for a group that will crumble within one battle because everyone has their high horse. You get into the game QUICK, which is what a game should for 'casual gamers'

Before people say "What about organization?" There is thing game mode called GvG, go there instead if you want some organized tactics. Heroes' Ascent would be a much more interesting, diverse, and most of all CHALLENGING place to be in. It will also be quick and allow players to explore other options, instead of following the basic plain vanilla template.

Sounds like instant chaos and a whole load of fun for casual players like me.

/signed

Dzan · Jan 23, 2006, 01:42 PM // 13:42

Doesn't anyone find it ironic that one of the reasons people want this 'random tombs' is so they can get Fame casually?

If you are against elitism, why do you want Fame at all? If all you want is the "fun and chaos of random 8v8", then you shouldn't need Fame. But if what you really want is some cheap Fame so you can get a cool emote to show off to your PVE only guildmates (which is what I suspect this is all about) then I have nothing good to say about you at all.